paragliding v skydiving experience

BASE813

after a recent comment by someone on this board, and after talking to several paraglider pilots about their sport, I am currious on peoples opinions on how paragliding experience fits with the BASE environment.

Its seems to me that there are many skydivers going on FJC's with limited knowledge and limited canopy experience but these are accepted as they have the apparent "prereq's" needed for the FJC - whereas some of the paraglider pilots I have spoken to seem to know a hell of alot more about winds and effects on a canopy, and general canopy flight in general than some of the people on FJC's not exactly prepared.

I am not saying anything one way or the other - just wanted to know more about peoples thoughts on the paragliders experience compared to a skydiver with 150 jumps.

Yes I know there is a large difference in a 7-cell to a paraglider canopy - but some people I have spoken to who went on a FJC (one of which bust his leg - whos comments were "i wish i did 7-cell experience first") - only had 9 cell ZP swoop canopy experience - so is there really that much of a difference?

Discussion?

pBASEtobe

Re: [BASE813] paragliding v skydiving experience

Paraglider pilots generally do have more knowledge of winds and weather than the average skydiver. And generally better canopy skills as well (sweeping generalization here). This is due to several factors. One is that each paragliding flight lasts much longer than a skydive so we just get MUCH more time under canopy. Having 50 hours air time paragliding is still considered a novice. If you were to have that same time under canopy skydiving you'd have to have several thousand jumps. Also, paragliders are much more susceptible to collapses due to turbulence and they are a pretty common occurrence. You have to know how to control the wing during these collapses to keep things from getting out of control. The only way to collapse a skydiving canopy is to stall it or fly it through a dust devil.
There are downsides though. I'm still trying to get myself used to the fact that I can pull down as hard as I like on my front risers under my BASE canopy. Do that on a PG wing and the next thing you'd be fighting with is trying to re-inflate your leading edge after a huge collapse.

NickDG

Re: [BASE813] paragliding v skydiving experience

I've trained more than a few paraglider pilots to skydive and they always do well. I think an experienced paraglider pilot could make the transition to BASE for several reasons.

Being under a canopy, or up in the air, doesn't overload them.

They have a better understanding of micro-climates and how they effect parachutes.

They are used to finding safe places to land, and generally have experienced more than a few out landings.

I've heard it said the best BASE students would be people with parachute experience, but not the skydiving attitude. Well, here they are . . .

I believe if paraglider pilots were limited (like skydivers) in where and when they could fly, they'd be launching off buildings in the middle of the night just like we do.

NickD
BASE 194

BASE813

Re: [NickDG] paragliding v skydiving experience

In reply to: I've trained more than a few paraglider pilots to skydive and they always do well. I think an experienced paraglider pilot could make the transition to BASE for several reasons.

Being under a canopy, or up in the air, doesn't overload them.

They have a better understanding of micro-climates and how they effect parachutes.

They are used to finding safe places to land, and generally have experienced more than a few out landings.

I've heard it said the best BASE students would be people with parachute experience, but not the skydiving attitude. Well, here they are . . .

I believe if paraglider pilots were limited (like skydivers) in where and when they could fly, they'd be launching off buildings in the middle of the night just like we do.

NickD
BASE 194
So with this in mind - would you say that someone with alot of paragliding experience could be a good candidate for a FJC just as someone who has the prereq of 150 skydives?

SwoopnHuck

Re: [BASE813] paragliding v skydiving experience

Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.

Hmmm ... note to self ... let's start a threat to openly bash skydivers and praise paragliders. Oops, no need to as someone beat me to it in this thread.

Why is it that some people always assume that the only people getting into BASE are skydivers with only 150 skydives and spent all their time swooping and thus are automatically classified as accidents waiting to happen. Why is it that some people only assume that paragliders are these larger than life canopy pilots who's experience and skill exceed those of all parachutists (except of course for the BASE jumping gods who have superior canopy skills to anyone around). How can you possible say that a paraglider is going to be more qualified than a skydiver? And where does the ground launcher fit into to all of this? We're talking about four different sports here (BASE, Skydiving, Paragliding and Ground Launching) and the only thing that any of them have in common is that they all use nylon and cordura fabric in their gear.

Yes experienced paragliders do have very good weather knowledge and very good canopy control (canopy control using paraglider specific gear not BASE jumping gear) and paragliders in some cases have experience landing out. But paragliders have no freefall experience and no packing experience and likely little experience dealing with malfunctioning canopies. Likewise some skydivers have poor weather knowledge, poor canopy control and haven't quite figured out freefall either. But are all skydivers like this? Hell no ... some skydivers have good weather knowledge (some of them may have been pilots before they were jumpers) and some skydivers have good canopy control and believe it or not, some skydivers also have experience landing out. I guess I'm just saying to generalize is just plain wrong. We're all individuals, we all come from different backgrounds and possess different experiences. If I want to get good at something, the only way I'll get good at it, is to get out there and do it. No amount of paragliding is going to make me a better BASE jumper, no amount of skydiving will make me a better BASE jumper. The only thing that is going to make me a better BASE jumper is to get out and BASE jump. Case in point, I was talking to someone yesterday about Ground Launching and they mentioned that we should do hop n' pops and practice flying close to each other. And to this response I said "well that couldn't hurt your canopy control skills, but if you want to learn how to Ground Launch, then you need to get out and Ground Launch with me".

Finally before I end my two cent (internet worthless) comments, I was inspecting a Ground Launching site yesterday which is also used by paragliders and I ran into a paraglider and I got to talking to him a little. The dude wasn't rude or anything, but he had his own attitude and misconceptions about Paragliding and Ground Launching and I could tell just from his words that he and his friends are not going to like myself and anyone I bring to the Ground Lauching site. The dude had no concept whatsoever as to what Ground Launching was and after trying to explain to him what it was that I would be doing, he basically tried to convince me that it wasn't possible to fly a canopy close to the slope (despite the fact that I've already got some Ground Launching experience) and that I should only be doing paragliding from this site. So BASE jumpers are not the only people snubbing their noses at other disciplines.

Next stop for this BASE jumper, Skydiver and Ground Launcher ... the most bodacious legal span to huck myself off of up in potato-ville.

BASE813

Re: [SwoopnHuck] paragliding v skydiving experience

In reply to: Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.

Hmmm ... note to self ... let's start a threat to openly bash skydivers and praise paragliders. Oops, no need to as someone beat me to it in this thread.

Why is it that some people always assume that the only people getting into BASE are skydivers with only 150 skydives and spent all their time swooping and thus are automatically classified as accidents waiting to happen. Why is it that some people only assume that paragliders are these larger than life canopy pilots who's experience and skill exceed those of all parachutists (except of course for the BASE jumping gods who have superior canopy skills to anyone around)
where exactly did I say all this?

In reply to: I am not saying anything one way or the other

TomAiello

Re: [SwoopnHuck] paragliding v skydiving experience

In reply to: Hmmm ... note to self ... let's start a threat to openly bash skydivers and praise paragliders. Oops, no need to as someone beat me to it in this thread.
Defensive much?

I had gotten the impression that 813 was thinking the other way around.

leroydb

Re: [SwoopnHuck] paragliding v skydiving experience

Yes we are all individuals...

I think by saying each sport (paragliding, Ground launching, Base skydiving) brings or adds something to life as a whole would be more appropriate.

Now, in a perfect world, if each one of use could get proficient at each one of these other sports it would in effect help each of the other sports out in an overall sense, right?

Lets not complain that this sport can help you better in relation to BASE, but lets talk about how each can help.

We know that paragliders have better weather knowledge and overall canopy skills, and we know that skydivers can fall through the air for long periods of time and live.

I don't know... bottom line each sport brings its own "flavor" to life and adds to its "total" experience, and we should not "bash" other sports. We are all one in the same

added:
<--now back to my corner....

ojlawrence

Re: [BASE813] paragliding v skydiving experience

I think I know what post/thread(the one with a lot of turd slinging?) you are referring to, I think there was a reference made to me on that post. I've been paragliding for over 10yrs and started doing the BASE thing a few years ago.

Paragliding has probably been more valuable to me than skydiving with respect to learning how to base jump. Paragliding is all about canopy flight, dealing with malfunctions, judging glide angle, and landing in horrible places.

Take your typical day out- first you try to figure out what the wind is doing(at altitude, at launch, and if you know where you’re landing, there too). Then you launch into some great unknown with a big canopy and the whole goal is to read the wind properly so 1. you don’t find yourself in some horrendous place where you will crash and 2. so you can stay aloft as long as possible which means you will probably have no idea where you will land. So you spend the majority of the flight trying not to get deflations(read: malfunctions) then once you do get a deflation(malfunction) you deal with it as expeditiously as possible. More often than not these malfunctions happen when you are close to the ground(think off heading opening on a solid object) so the muscle memory and awareness to deal with critical situations is already there. If you’ve managed to go cross country you’re probably going to be landing in a place you’ve never landed before surrounded by all sorts of obstacles. This means that you have to be very quick in deciding what the wind is doing and how to make a good approach into a real tight landing area.

An average intermediate PG pilot has a few hundred hours of airtime dealing with all of the above(malfunctions, potential object strikes, new unpredictable landing areas…) How many hours does an Expert BASE jumper have? Not even a fraction of that.

I’ve watched a handful of paraglider pilots stick the crap out of their first BASE jumps with no skydiving experience. Don’t get me wrong, skydiving experience has it’s place in the BASE world, I firmly believe that. However, I think it’s perfectly safe for a heads up PG pilot to make the transition to BASE jumping at places like TF. I also know that anybody who is teaching these pg/base crossovers is firmly advocating getting skydive experience before the students go on to objects with any kind of delay.
Othar

cwn

Re: [ojlawrence] paragliding v skydiving experience

The best experience for someone who wants to get into BASE jumping would be that which best prepares them for BASE jumping.

In a skydiving environment they would have the ability to do accuracy jumps with a real BASE canopy. I don't see how flying a paraglider (or small elliptical 9-cell skydiving canopy) could come close the benefit they would get from flying the same type of BASE canopy they will be using when they BASE jump.

If they want to jump with the PC in a BOC pouch on a BASE jump they better be able to find the PC on the first reach every time without going unstable. IMO nothing will prepare them for this better than doing it on a few hundred skydives first.

BASE gear evolved from skydiving gear and still has many similarities. Experience with skydiving gear will teach them a lot of the basics that they will need to know for BASE.

Skydiving makes it very easy for me to practice with my BASE canopy before going on a BASE jumping trip. At a local skydiving dropzone on a good day I can get 10 to 12 accuracy jumps from 4000'.

If you want a lot of canopy time per jump and experience with off field landings CReW should do the trick.

skreamer

Re: [cwn] paragliding v skydiving experience

In reply to: At a local skydiving dropzone on a good day I can get 10 to 12 accuracy jumps from 4000'.
Exactly. On a good day how many times does a paraglider land their canopy?

jonstark

Re: [NickDG] paragliding v skydiving experience

The best passengers I have EVER taken on tandem were hanglider and parapente pilots. I even let them spot.

Hell... I didn't have any BASE jumps when I made my first and my "mentor" had two!! At least we figured out to take off our deployment bags. (whew)

Remember who figured out the "Rollover"? It wasn't Shane was it?

jon

ultraviolet

Re: [BASE813] paragliding v skydiving experience

What was the original question ? Oh yeah. Depends on the person.

pBASEtobe

Re: [skreamer] paragliding v skydiving experience

In reply to: Exactly. On a good day how many times does a paraglider land their canopy?
Actually you'd be surprised. On a good day where I fly many pilots do several top landings and launches during the day. That is if they're not going cross country.

I'd have to say that if you had to pick one sport to do before getting into BASE it would obviously be skydiving not paragliding. But, in my opinion one would make a better BASE jumper initially if they had experience in both skydiving and paragliding. What aspect in life isn't like that though? The more you know the better you are.

tdog

Re: [BASE813] paragliding v skydiving experience

Ok - so I was a paraglider pilot - and now am learning skydiving... No BASE experience other than watching the Go Fast Games this year at the Royal Gorge. Take my opinion for whatever you wish...

In reply to: Paraglider pilots generally do have more knowledge of winds and weather than the average skydiver.
I would agree in that I was taught much more weather in Paraglidng school than skydiving school. And – I don’t see the experienced guys talking about weather post AFF either.

In reply to: (paraglider) likely little experience dealing with malfunctioning canopies.
Hmm... In my first 12 paraglidng flights I had to correct more dangerous (read pending death) situations (deflations, knots, stalls, turns into hills on launch, etc) than in my first 12 skydives. I had to work hard to keep my paraglider over my head, and I landed in spots smaller than a McDonalds parking lot when I could not make it to the normal spot… I can say ground launching a paraglider was much more difficult to learn than skydiving. A friend of mine died doing it.

In skydiving - you pull somewhere high enough you can fire your reserve. In BASE you have some distance (greater than 4’) between the ground and you to get the canopy flying overhead and controllable. In paragliding you build a wall, inspect your canopy, and pull it over your head and run down a rocky hill. There is a point of no return where you are flying even if you don't want too... I have seen people not have time to react to knots or line twists. And there are days when you run half way down a hill missing trees as you go where aborting would be simple.

In reply to: and I ran into a paraglider and I got to talking to him a little. The dude wasn't rude or anything, but he had his own attitude and misconceptions about Paragliding and Ground Launching and I could tell just from his words that he and his friends are not going to like myself and anyone I bring to the Ground Lauching site.
Ok, so here is the deal... Paragliders fly off of publicly or privately owned lands, not drop zones. I know it took years of meetings to get a few local sites opened, and only one mistake for one to get closed down a few years back. These are not commercial operations like Drop Zones - you don't pay a fee to enter. You are guests. And since paragliders often fly the same site 5 times a day, they hope to fly the same site more than once.

Just like the USPA has insurance for 3rd party accidents, the USHGA has the same. Membership is required at most launch sites in the contracts between the landowners (like cities, ski resorts, etc) and the local clubs. Also, just like the USPA says a student can't fly when XXX - the USHGA and local clubs have rules to self govern the sport.

Knowing a bunch of paraglider pilots - if you showed up to a site with a skydiving or base rig and said, "I am going to fly" - I think they would call the police on you and have the power to do so granted by the landowners. They would see you as a threat to everything they worked for and the landowners would see you as trespassing. Now, if you learned paraglidng in the same way they did, and proved you knew how to fly close to the ground and on ridgelines, knew how to kite your canopy - and then brought the skydiving/base canopy to the site - I bet they would respect you and welcome you with open arms... Perhaps even ask to try your canopy too and invite you to the bar to learn from you. They have seen just as many people die paraglidng as experienced skydivers have in our community – and they take it very seriously.

In reply to: Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.
But they are both fruit. I learned nothing about skydiving freefall in paraglidng - but once the canopy opened, while other AFF1 students were trying to find the toggles, I was trying to find the stall point...

Here is my opinion… Learning to fly a paraglider is like learning to drive a big truck. Learning to fly a skydiving rig is like learning to drive a car… Once you know how to drive one, the other is easier to learn… But, I would never BASE jump without some freefall experience in a more forgiving environment, like in skydiving… Paragliding only cross trains for the second half of skydiving.

T.

TomAiello

Re: [tdog] paragliding v skydiving experience

In reply to: ...Paragliders fly off of publicly or privately owned lands, not drop zones. I know it took years of meetings to get a few local sites opened, and only one mistake for one to get closed down a few years back. These are not commercial operations like Drop Zones - you don't pay a fee to enter. You are guests. And since paragliders often fly the same site 5 times a day, they hope to fly the same site more than once.
Sounds exactly like BASE, doesn't it?

Read it this way:

In reply to: ...BASE jumpers jump off of publicly or privately owned sites, not drop zones. I know it took years of meetings to get a few local sites opened, and only one mistake for one to get closed down a few years back. These are not commercial operations like Drop Zones - you don't pay a fee to enter. You are guests. And since BASE jumpers often jump the same site 5 times a day, they hope to jump the same site more than once.
And then for this one:

In reply to: ...if you showed up to a site with a skydiving or base rig and said, "I am going to fly" - I think they would call the police on you and have the power to do so granted by the landowners. They would see you as a threat to everything they worked for.
try:

In reply to: ...if you showed up to a BASE site with a paraglider and said, "I am going to fly" - I think they would call the police on you and have the power to do so granted by the landowners. They would see you as a threat to everything they worked for.
Given the similarities, perhaps cooperation would work better than confrontation.

I'm going to go dig around the USHGA web site, and see if I can join...

NickDG

Re: [BASE813] paragliding v skydiving experience

>>So with this in mind - would you say that someone with alot of paragliding experience could be a good candidate for a FJC just as someone who has the prereq of 150 skydives?<<

Yeah, I tiptoed around that, but yes, and only in the following circumstances.

The person doing the mentoring must have enough experince, not just in BASE jumping, but also in instructing, so they can present the material on a level the student can understand.

The big trick is varied students need different approaches and it takes years to be able to tell who needs what. Some Mentors in BASE, and many Instructors in Skydiving, will make the mistake of trying to tailor the student to the sport, when you should be tailoring the sport to the student . . .

NickD
BASE194

tymkoder

Re: [NickDG] paragliding v skydiving experience VS BASE KITE

I have Kitted my Mojo 280..
here is how it went..

I went to the local park to air out my canopy. by the time I got here the winds had picked up to much to do a standard ground inspecion.. sooo....

I walked across the park and climbed up the 200 foot hill at the top stood a nice tree.. with wind blowing from 30 degrees off the back of the hill over the top at about 25 MPH..

I climbed the tree wrapped myself around the tree and dropped my canopy with 180 twist so that it would inflate..the wind was at my back and I was looking around the tree over the hill.. Instantly my canopy blasted straight up. so with out more thought I slid to the side and let go...

ZZZIIINNNGGG... i blasted up 30 feet inthe air. over the edge of the hill. everything seemed fine.. untill I tried to spin out of the line twist. spinning caused me to load the canopy wrong and make the canopy dive to the right back intot he hill. FLAIR FLAIR FLAIR..... PLF I was on the ground.. the the wind caught the caonpy again. and I was back up in the air for at least a moment untill I hit again and the was drug for 50 yards. then back up inthe air flying again.. then..

I was like a rag doll after fight running hitting the ground and being drug for 100 yards or better I finally decided to pull the cutaway handle...
the kids at the playground thought it was awesome

DOES THIS QUALIFY ME TO BE A PARAGLIDER?

Faber

Re: [tymkoder] paragliding v skydiving experience VS BASE KITE

no that makes you a ground launcher he he

tdog

Re: [TomAiello] paragliding v skydiving experience

In reply to: Given the similarities, perhaps cooperation would work better than confrontation.
Very good point... I know little about BASE jumping other than I respect it a lot more now that I have jumped out of a plane. My line twists today would have killed me if I was base jumping as I burned 1000 feet kicking out of them under a mildly spinning non-landable canopy…

The press and main stream reputation about BASE jumping is that it is done by rebellious people who use bolt cutters and other tools to BASE without permission - and that, in a way, is what makes it cool.

Whereas, paraglider pilots go out of their way to make sure what they do is approved by whoever has jurisdiction... If you fly off a site without permission from the owners, other paraglider pilots will make sure your ratings are revoked. If you fly when a FAA NOTAM is in place, you will get kicked out of the sport. (as they don’t want FAA regulation) They just (at least the locals I knew) don't tolerate anyone who has the attitude, "do it now, ask for forgiveness latter." The last thing they want is a rebellious or illegal activity reputation. I think this is EXACTLY what BASE jumpers must face when they have a legal site used by the community. One BASE jumper breaks rules – the people who control access to the site start second-guessing their decision and want to close it down…

In reply to: I'm going to go dig around the USHGA web site, and see if I can join...
I know you can! Just like you can be a non-rated USPA member, you can be a non-rated USHGA member... You will get a cool magazine with incident reports and stories of cross country flights, and articles on how to do fancy maneuvers like wingovers.

But, why don’t you take a few weekends and learn and become rated??? Even at P1 - you will learn hours of basic wind information to learn when a hill is safe to fly and when it is not.

The paragliding class is very similar to AFF, but much cheaper. I paid $1000 for LIFETIME training - I could just show up any day I wanted and get instruction... You will do a lot of ground school with and without gear, then fly off a little mountain the same weekend. Then you have your P1... After a few dozen flights, you fill out a proficiency card, and you get a P2. There is no gear rental fee while you are working on P2, and there are no slots to buy in the plane for yourself, instructors, or coaches. The most complicated sites you need a P3 or P4 to fly, which takes about as much effort as a C or D skydiving license...

I think skydivers could teach a lot of paragliders a thing or to - and the other way around. I am SO thankful I have the cross discipline experience. If any skydiver came up to me and said, “how can I learn to fly my canopy better (not landings) I would say, consider taking paragliding lessons from a school like AirPlay.

There is a medical reason (my knees dislocate when running down hill, thanks DNA) that I quit paragliding. But, I have to say, if I could safely re-enter the sport, I think I would fly a skydiving rig off a mountain for the fun of it. I would have worked with the local club to make it possible, and I would have started with something loaded .75 to 1.

If you want any info about schools, the ratings, where to learn, how to learn, etc - PM me...