some questions

GooManChew

i made a balloon jump (i know skydiving is lame ) into a pretty urban area. when we were climbing to exit altitude we were looking for a suitable landing area. we chose a smallish grass field next to the parking lot of supermarket/stripmall on the corner of a major 4 lane road. we got out & landed in the field with out incident, so we thought. the cops got there before we got to our chase vehicle. the cops gave us the 'what for' & took our ssn's, dob's etc . . . all he was saying was 'didn't you know you can't do that!?!?!?' we were like no, we didn't know. he couldn't figure out what to 'charge' us with so he said we could go & we'd be hearing form them. the guy i jumped with had just gotten accepted into airforce fighter school (now flying f-16s), so he was buggin'. anyway, i digress, to continue, we went back to the dz & told the dzo what happened so he called his friend, the chief of po-po & the mayor. he explained to them that a parachute (unpowered aircraft) can land 'anywhere' without permission (like a balloon can land on someone's property w/o permission - cuz it 'can't steer') as per the faa regs. all the notams & faa procedures were followed. so we didn't hear back from them cops & that was the end of that.

i know the nps law prohibits 'aeriel delivery', but ( here it comes - a question) couldn't the faa reg that says an unpowered aircraft can land anywhere be in a national park? does the faa's athority superceed that of the nps? (i don't have very many far's or faa regs memorized so i can't give you the specific reg & could be wrong as i didn't read it for myself) i understand that the obvious answer is no, cuz i'm well aware the if you get busted jumpin in a np - go directly to jail - do not pass go.
has anyone tried to use the faa reg in their defense?
does anyone know the reg? or if it might help?

just looking for a loophole since they don't allow base in nps - or issue permits (except 6 wonderful hrs in oct)

here is an example where the nps 'couldn't' charge you with aerial delivery: your flying your cirrus aircraft (the one with the ballistic parachute) over a np - have an emergency, deploy the chute & land in the np
i guess the difference would be the emergency . . .

Bigwallmaster

Re: [GooManChew] some questions

Yeah I've read others on here asking similar Q's before.

I would tell to search the forum, but that's a pain in the ass.

Yes. I believe several other people over the years have tried to use the FAA loopholes for jumping in places like the big valley. But it doesn't pencil.

Problem is that in BASE your feet leave the ground or structure, not an aircraft. The parachute itself falls under FAA regs, but is not used involuntarily for the most part. The person flying it chose to fly it there. . . .by and large. (Unless bailing out of a disable aircraft) That's why you get arrested NP's when BASEing.

I think the FAA loophole you are referring to would only work if you just so happened to be using your parachute in an area outside of NPS land, and at some point drifted by accident. Then I think it would be hard for to press charges.

Cheers,

JP

Zing

Re: [GooManChew] some questions

You're already on pretty thin ice where the jump is concerned. FAA regs are pretty clear about notofication and property owners' permission for an intentional parachute jump.
You'll likely get away with it in this instance, as it appears no one was injured and no damage was done, but if someone decided to make an issue of it, you'd lose the case, whether its at the local FSDO or in a court.
Likewise, using that interpretation as a defense against a citation from the NPS would be a losing bet.

Zing Lurks

GreenMachine

Black, White & Grey Areas

Blue Skies "GooManChew",

Glad you had a nice balloon jump, I enjoy
them and do not think they are lame.

Regarding the NPS, doubtful you could use
wind drift as a way to avoid prosecution.

As for the legalities of balloon jumping in general,
licensed balloons have N numbers, are considered
aircraft, and hence the FARs apply for intential
jumping: TSO'd harness, certified reserve, both
main and reserve packed within 120 days, and
a pack opening of 1,800 feet.

Just curious, were you using BASE rigs or Sky?
Of course officer friendly responding would not
know the difference.

Lastly, I took a balloon flight 3 weeks ago and
the pilot landed us in a guy's front yard with
not a second of hesitation.

Day BASE 1366
Night BASE 293

brianfry713

Re: [GreenMachine] Black, White & Grey Areas

Pulling low is not illegal. There is no law or FAR saying that you have to open above a certain altitude, or open at all. In the US we have the USPA BSRs, which require pack opening by 2,000 feet, but those are not law, only requirements to be a USPA member or group member DZ.

You should have permission from the land owner before making an intentional parachute jump onto their property, otherwise you are trespassing. To make it legal, you'll have to notify ATC at least an hour before the jump and maintain radio contact with them.

GooManChew

Re: [GreenMachine] Black, White & Grey Areas

i used a skydiving rig

ok so my take on the whole thing is if you didn't make a skydive (ie outta an aircraft in flight) as governed by the faa - how could it be aerial delivery? wouldn't it be fixed object delivery? the nps doesn't have a reg against that - just aerial delivery.

i know i'm preaching to the choir here - but i like to play devil's advocate

as an aside, we were on the second load, i was g/c. the balloon pilot put out load 1, landed on a cul-de-sac in the middle of the street (dropped the rope, we caught it & pulled the balloon back into the middle of the street) we got in & went for our jump .. .
someone called 911 & said there was a balloon 'crashing' - so the cops were already 'after' us
that was about 9-10 years ago & was the last balloon jump that took off from our dz. the pilot had his ticket suspended &/or reviewed & was a big pain in his ass . . .

thanks (everyone) for the responses

Calvin19

Re: [GooManChew] some questions

the FAA and the NPS are both evil, horrible, annoying necessities(if barely)

the FAA has VERY little written on the skydiving end of aviation. The NPS has NOTHING written about parachutes and BASE in national parks.

pulling low has nothing to do with the FAA. its the 'USPA-industry standards' that they could, -maybe- get people on.

but the bottomline for your question is, its not an emergency. therfor, you cannot use that loophole, for FAA or NPS reasons.

[useless rant]on a different note, i really hate all the moronic elitist skydivers that have never left a DZ that preach the SIM as if it was law. those people really crack me up.[/useless rant]

GooManChew

Re: [Calvin19] some questions

i thought nps had a reg against 'aerial delivery' - that stemmed from people who would live in a np & have food/supplies dropped to them on a regular basis so they didn't have to leave

Calvin19

Re: [GooManChew] some questions

your correct, i worded it wrong. i meant for non-delivery, delivery, of a person. to the same place that they were. kinda like not delivering something.

GreenMachine

Re: [brianfry713] Black, White & Grey Areas

You are right Brian Fry, I just reviewed
FAR-Part 105 and did not see an opening
altitude listed, my mistake.

As for the USPAs rules about pack opening,
they vary with the jumper's license, with
D License holders being the lowest.

Day BASE 1366
Night BASE 293

GreenMachine

Re: Calvin19's [useless rant]

I have about a dozen non-DZ jumps.
Not as much as you but thats only cause
I am a wimp and move slowly, but more
jumps will follow for sure.

The SIM is valuable for teaching new jumpers
to safely skydive, BUT I would not preach it,
especially for bandit jumps!

FYI: Living where I do, suitable bridges are
not near by, hence using a tether'd balloon
without an N number is a goal of mine.

I know, I know, it is not BASE, but it is
a way to get cheap air time, experience
with 2 second delays, and a way to dial
in my pack job.

Day BASE 1366
Night BASE 293

brianfry713

Re: [Calvin19] some questions

NPS Management policies 2006
http://www.nps.gov/...s.html#_Toc157232902

8.2.2.7 Parachuting
Parachuting (or BASE jumping), whether from an aircraft, structure, or natural feature, is generally prohibited by 36 CFR 2.17(a)(3). However, if determined through a park planning process to be an appropriate activity, it may be allowed pursuant to the terms and conditions of a permit.

(See Appropriate Use 8.1.1)

This is the cited law:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/...julqtr/36cfr2.17.htm

Sec. 2.17 Aircraft and air delivery.
(a) The following are prohibited:
(3) Delivering or retrieving a person or object by parachute, helicopter, or other airborne means, except in emergencies involving public safety or serious property loss, or pursuant to the terms and
conditions of a permit.

Calvin19

Re: [brianfry713] some questions

i remember hearing rumors that it was changed. that is from 2006.

bastards.

funny thing about the NPS...
My girlfreinds Father works for the NPS, and him and most of his fellow nps guys (they and him are environmental consultants, they shut down powerplants and stuff like that to keep NPs clean) they dont like the NPS and think it is messed up that the rules are what they are. not just BASE, but everything.

GooManChew

Re: [Calvin19] some questions

afaik, i was changed in 2006 - to include the last phrase "it may be allowed pursuant to the terms and conditions of a permit."

thanks brianfry713 for finding the reg (i'm lazy & knew someone would do it)

GooManChew

ANOTHER COUPLE QUESTIONS

how does one aquire a permit to jump in the nps?

if you are fuc%ing a cat in the a$$ - is that getting pu$$y?

VincentVL.

Re: [GooManChew] ANOTHER COUPLE QUESTIONS

Ask some random powerdrink PR dude.

460

Re: [GooManChew] ANOTHER COUPLE QUESTIONS

This is the same exact point used by Dennis McGlynn's lawyer. The circuit court federal judge didn't buy the argument. Dennis did several months of federal time for it though after all was said and done. It was ridiculous because he landed in water that was not considered NPS jurisdiction. Dennis and his lawyer were trying to gain the resources to take it to the U.S. Supreme Court. There are others here on this forum who are more familiar with the details of the case.

HOBO #7

TomAiello

Re: [GooManChew] ANOTHER COUPLE QUESTIONS

In reply to: how does one aquire a permit to jump in the nps?
The only permits I'm aware of in recent years are:

(a) the Bridge Day permit (for BASE) issued every year, which I'd bet the NPS would like to get rid of, but can't for political reasons;
(b) a demo done by Team Fastrax (for skydiving) landing on National Park land near the statue of liberty;
(c) a demo done every year in St. Louis, landing on the National Park land under the Saint Louis arch.

The St. Louis demo is part of a permit issued to the county for purposes of conducting a larger airshow. I don't know about the Statue of Liberty permit. Bridge Day, I think we all know that story.

Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
Snake River BASE Academy