Vented Canopies?

MB38

Re: [TomAiello] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: ...so why waste the money buying a (pricey) bit of technology that won't help you on the objects you are jumping? I think it's better to wait and get them on your next canopy, which you're more likely to be taking to such sites. Now Tom, do you see any reason not to "buy once" and stick with a particular canopy? Getting valves on one's first canopy may cost a little more initially, but it'll still be cheaper than a new canopy when the jumper moves to lower or underhung objects.

Am I missing something essential? Some reason that something like a BlackJack may not be appropriate for most objects at all delays?

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

Fledgling

Re: [MB38] Vented Canopies?

I agree with you here. I would buy (and did) a vented canopy first time around so that I wouldn´t need to replace it later on.

TomAiello

Re: [MB38] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: Now Tom, do you see any reason not to "buy once" and stick with a particular canopy?
Because it will wear out?

From my perspective, it's "not worth it" because of the number of canopies I've gone through. My first canopy became vented (I sent it back to Basic Research when the original vtec [no valves] became available, at which time it had around 300 jumps) well into it's (and my) career. I've owned probably close to 20 canopies now, so I don't really see them as something you can reasonably "stick with". In my mind, they're more of a consumable product.

Another thought about "sticking with" your canopy. Does that mean that when you buy your first canopy, you already know exactly what canopy will suit you best, and will never shop around again, look at newer designs, or swap manufacturers?

Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
Snake River BASE Academy

bert_man

Re: [TomAiello] Vented Canopies?

I think it is likely that a new jumper buying their first canopy will probably hang onto it for a while, probably around a year at least. In that year, they will probably have advanced to the point where they are able to jump lower objects (which is what many jumpers in the US are limited to in their area)

I think it's pretty reasonable for a new jumper to spend the extra money on a vented canopy when they know that they may soon progress to low slider-down strikeable objects.

In addition, I think newer jumpers are less likely to be picky about which canopy they fly because they have less experience flying different designs. While a more experienced jumper may experiment heavily with trying new canopies; buying, trading, selling them; I think most new jumpers are out to purchase a conservative canopy that they can become comfortable with and grow into (edit: for a while).

Just my 0.02

MB38

Re: [TomAiello] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: Another thought about "sticking with" your canopy. Does that mean that when you buy your first canopy, you already know exactly what canopy will suit you best, and will never shop around again, look at newer designs, or swap manufacturers? Of course not! It's why I asked. Thanks for clarifying.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

MagicGuy

Re: [sillie1111] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: Most of the non-vented canopies were just scary to watch ! It definitely got my mind going!
Oh great, so you want me to buy a 'scary' canopy. I see how it is..

Come out to the Perrine in March so you can jump with me!!

"No, I can't make your wife disappear."

Skydawg

Re: [TomAiello] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: In general, I'd say that the vents aren't for a beginner, because the vents are most noticeable on lowish slider down, and especially underhung (where you want the wing flying to avoid the object coming out below you), solid objects. Beginners shouldn't really be jumping those types of objects, so why waste the money buying a (pricey) bit of technology that won't help you on the objects you are jumping? I think it's better to wait and get them on your next canopy, which you're more likely to be taking to such sites.
One good reason to get a vented canopy is the canopy is more likely to stay inflated during a cliff strike

hookitt

Re: [TomAiello] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: Because it will wear out?
A quote from This thread
In reply to:
I'd say an average canopy will last somewhere between 350 and 500 jumps.
That would suggest it will last plenty long to have legitimate use for the vents. My suggestion would be to get the vents. My preference would be a Black Jack of proper size.

Good luck.

Confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understand the situation.

andyhughes

Re: [TomAiello] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: Tailwind: As the canopy starts to transition, the tailwind essentially blows wind up the canopy from tail to nose. The canopy "perceives" this wind (in combination with the inflation forces) as "slowing" the rate at which the wind blows into the nose (or if you prefer, the rate at which the canopy moves forward). This means that the back surge air (the air that is flowing in through the vents and striking the topskin) is "stronger" by comparison, and hence more likely to cause a backsurge. The tailwind effectively deepens the brake setting during this step, and also results in a slightly slower inflation (i.e. a greater time from PC pitch to flying wing overhead).
It sounds like some of the problems related to back-surge on vented/valved canopies could perhaps be counteracted by some Airlock-esque design features on the nose. In effect dampening the effects of relative wind on DBS settings?

bert_man

Re: [andyhughes] Vented Canopies?

I'd be curious to see what that would do to heading performance, as cell inflation and pressurization would be almost entirely accomplished via the vents (since the nose airlocks might tend to be closed during opening). I would also think it would pressurize much more slowly, cancelling out the effect of the vents.

quifmiester

Re: [sillie1111] Vented Canopies?

In my limted jumping career my blackjack 280 has been awesome. About 20 jumps slider up at Kjerag, the openings were nice and 3 or 4 were more than 30 degrees off heading. Perhaps my body position? Slider down on objects 350' and below with manufacturers DBS and the openings have been on heading every time and seem to burn minimal altitude. Canopy response is crisp as soon as I pop the toggles. I have nothing to really compare it to but I have total confidence in my kit. Manufacturers advice on canopy size and loading seems to work well for brake setings. (You'd hope so!) I'd recomend my blackjack to any beginner.

Mac

Re: [quifmiester] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: I'd recomend my blackjack to any beginner.
How can you "recomend" a canopy to any "beginner" when you your self have limited experience on it?

This is madness...... you may as well say "I have done this a few times so I think you can do it"

In reply to: I have nothing to really compare it to but I have total confidence in my kit.
So what? You have confidence in your kit with nothing to compare to it, but you have NO PROBLEM advising newbies on what they should jump.....

Mac

Re: [Mac] Vented Canopies?

another great quote:

In reply to: I only have 25 BASE jumps on my BlackJack and 6 skydives, but I would recommend it to any BASE jumper.
Seriously, how can you recommend something you have such limited experience on?

tr027

Re: [Mac] Vented Canopies?

To play devil's advocate for a second:
Canopy experience numbers are relative. What used to be alot isnt as much these days. In order to be qualified to be a base newbie, that person should have the ability (to think for themself) to qualify to varying degrees the opinions of each person giving recommendations based on how they feel about the recommendor's experience. In other words, who are you or anybody else to decide who can or cannot give recommendations, shouldn't the listener decide for themself who they want to heed and what they want for themselves?

"Gold is the money of kings. Silver is the money of gentlemen. Barter is the money of peasants and debt is the money of slaves."

Mac

Re: [Mac] Vented Canopies?

yet another great quote:

In reply to: Wow
Why did you all assume that what Tom posted was the way it happens? Why did none of you question anything he had to say, there were NO QUESTIONS!!!! Just because someone sounds like they know what they are talking about, does not mean they do...... (no disrespect TA, just trying to make a point)....

Mac

Re: [tr027] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: To play devil's advocate for a second:
Canopy experience numbers are relative. What used to be alot isnt as much these days. In order to be qualified to be a base newbie, that person should have the ability (to think for themself) to qualify to varying degrees the opinions of each person giving recommendations based on how they feel about the recommendor's experience. In other words, who are you or anybody else to decide who can or cannot give recommendations, shouldn't the listener decide for themself who they want to heed and what they want for themselves?
any BASE jumper that advises to use/do something that they have limited experience in themselves (especially to newbies) is out of order..... thats my thought

In reply to: shouldn't the listener decide for themself who they want to heed and what they want for themselves?
sadly the new breed of BASE jumpers (In my opinion) are not the people that make decent choices

MyTwoCents

Re: [Mac] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: yet another great quote:

In reply to: Wow
Why did you all assume that what Tom posted was the way it happens? Why did none of you question anything he had to say, there were NO QUESTIONS!!!! Just because someone sounds like they know what they are talking about, does not mean they do...... (no disrespect TA, just trying to make a point)....
Has it occured to you that possibly there were no questions because Tom's explanation made sense to them?

Rather than slacking others for their alledged ignorance, you would do better to invest that energy into proving their ignorance.

E.g., show them what kind of questions they could have asked.

I guess that goes for me to, rather than slacking the slacker, I should be drinking beers while listening to Dire Straits. Come on Mac, it's time you come visit in Vancouver so we can flick something. Stop breaking your head over the dying noobs around you. As Ray Losli said: "...we're just paying back an overdue loan, who cares about a beginner here and there."

Mac

Re: [TomAiello] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: In reply to: The Troll MDV already has vents. (forgive me if I'm wrong!)
MDV is an acronym for Mono Directional Valve, so no forgiveness is necessary.
Mono Directional? that suggests only one way? that is completly against the design of what the MDV actually is????

I thought MDV is a Multi directional valve and not mono. This is from the fact that the valve closes in various directions.... compared to the "flaps" that most valves have...

TomAiello

Re: [Mac] Vented Canopies?

In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: The Troll MDV already has vents. (forgive me if I'm wrong!)
MDV is an acronym for Mono Directional Valve, so no forgiveness is necessary.
Mono Directional? that suggests only one way? that is completly against the design of what the MDV actually is????

I thought (actually I know) MDV is a Multi directional valve and not mono. This is from the fact that the valve closes in various directions.... compared to the "flaps" that most valves have...
According to the advertisement on Page 12 of this months , it stands for Mono Directional Valve (P-MDV is explained parenthetically as Penta-Mono Directional Valve).

I believe that mono directional is meant to refer to the fact that air can flow into the canopy through the bottom skin, but not out. Hence, the valve is mono-directional, where the previous Vtec (no covers) system that had dominated the market initially was a bi-directional (air could flow in and out) system.

See also the Morpheus Web Site which gives this explanation (under the Products: Canopies heading):

In reply to: MDV Technology

Stane is on the cutting edge of parachute design in general and this has become very clear with the introduction of MDV technology. The valve system on the Troll is called Mono Directional Valve technology or MDV technology.

Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
Snake River BASE Academy

Mac

Re: [TomAiello] Vented Canopies?

touché

I will fuck off and get my coat now.....

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