BASE dytter

RhondaLea

Re: [460] BASE dytter

In reply to: More importantly, there have been several base deaths because of a loss of altitude awareness. Lee Werling for example.
After Lee died, I remember talking to one of the guys at the dz--someone I'd known since he started skydiving--who was just learning to base jump. Lee had been his teacher. In the course of the conversation, I said, "don't you count?"

He said, "Counting is for wussies."

I started as a static line student, tried a little AFF and went back to static line. After I had about seventy-five jumps, I stopped wearing an altimeter most of the time because by then I knew where I was. Seems to me that if you can't keep track of a minute's worth of seconds in your head--and for base, it's far fewer--you have no business walking out of the house in the morning, much less jumping out of an airplane or off an object.

As a technological wonder, Chris, it seems an interesting idea, but in another way, it is a lure for some people to go beyond their skill set. "I can do <insert amazing gymnastic feat> because I've got a little electronic marvel in my ear to warn me if I'm getting too low."

But I could be ignorant; the above was a quick and visceral reaction, mostly because of the mention of Lee. <extends invitation for masses to bestow enlightenment>

rl

Skin

Re: [RhondaLea] BASE dytter

In reply to:
After Lee died, I remember talking to one of the guys at the dz--someone I'd known since he started skydiving--who was just learning to base jump. Lee had been his teacher. In the course of the conversation, I said, "don't you count?"

He said, "Counting is for wussies."
Whilst perhaps an accurate account of Lee's statement, I think it's a little misleading.

Lee could only count to 8. Except when he was towards the end of a 50 pack of cheese squares at which point he would scream at Jimmy and demand the missing cheese to be replaced.

RIP 'punk. Glad you don't have to hear all this wussie shit.

RhondaLea

Re: [Skin] BASE dytter

In reply to: In reply to:
After Lee died, I remember talking to one of the guys at the dz--someone I'd known since he started skydiving--who was just learning to base jump. Lee had been his teacher. In the course of the conversation, I said, "don't you count?"

He said, "Counting is for wussies."
Whilst perhaps an accurate account of Lee's statement, I think it's a little misleading.

Lee could only count to 8. Except when he was towards the end of a 50 pack of cheese squares at which point he would scream at Jimmy and demand the missing cheese to be replaced.

RIP 'punk. Glad you don't have to hear all this wussie shit.

I never heard Lee say that counting is for wussies. I only know what this guy said afterward--for himself, not for Lee.

If you think I would disparage Lee in any way, $kin--even by implication--you don't know me as well as I thought you did.

But I'm surely glad I have some use as a straight (wo)man. Any Lee story is a good story.

rl

460

Re: [460] BASE dytter

The idea is more for long delays. Short delays are just too simple.

The ditter is an offshoot of collecting real velocity and distance data under a variety of conditions, such as temperature, humidity, tracking style, clothing, etc. Weather conditions should vary little over the altitudes of consideration on a base jump, but will subtly influence the fall rate and tracking rate. The variability of falling conditions from tracking, clothing, and exit is simply NOT KNOWN in the base environment. The freefall charts that are quoted are not that accurate, and the France cave jump was a critical example of delay choice. My hypothesis is as such: A barometric ditter is simply not accurate enough based on the altitude variations experienced in base. A comparison of real data will confirm or refute this. An analysis of the data will allow an understanding of the variations due to all the relevant variables. Based on collected data, the microcontroller can trigger however the user wants in such and such conditions based on lookup tables of previously acquired data.

Even more importantly, this device would allow an estimate of distance fallen versus time from pilot chute inflation to full parachute deployment. This variation is not that well known outside of manufacturers who constantly do drop tests.

The project may simply not be practical for most jumpers. I still do believe in a delay hard deck though. There are also times when delays can become very specific in enormous big way launches.

I also realize that this debate will exactly mimic the debate in skydiving years ago regarding AADs.

Edit addition:
Upon further thought, during the beta testing, I will add a tridirectional gyroscope (integrated circuit from Analog devices) in addition to the triaxial accelerometer integrated circuit in order to obtain directional information while in flight. These sort of systems are commonly used (not necessarily integrated circuits) in rocket navigation.

riggersam

Re: [460] BASE dytter

Perhaps you could add a radar altimeter? I think that would solve the concerns of varied terrain, ledges, etc. It would probably be best to have the device automatically adjust for horiztonal motion. For example, if you're tracking and at a 1:1 ratio, the altimeter would need to be measuring your distance to impact at a 45 degree angle down and out in front of you, rather than straight down.

Hmmm.. Couple that with the inertial navigation system, you could generate ultra-accurate topo maps of the terrain that you're flying over. Perhaps the USGS would then pay us to wingsuit around in that big granite valley!

Zennie

Re: [riggersam] BASE dytter

<eyes glaze over>

Cookie anyone?

460

Re: [riggersam] BASE dytter

This would indeed be possible since I am a radar scientist. I have friends who design these systems for fighter jets. It may be cost prohibitive though. My little unit (4" x 3" x 1") cost me about the same as a conventional skydiving ditter.

NickDG

Re: [460] BASE dytter

Why not, just look at all the fun we had with Laser range finders . . . another gizmo to play with is cool. This stuff is inevitable and if it helps me save my energy that's fine. Just add a mode that repeats, "I'm an idiot, what I'm I doing here?" for when I'm climbing that next ladder.

Will we get to the point when someone walks down from Kjerag because their gadget isn't working?

The entire BASE trick is in using a single activation handle before its too late, that's the whole thing. If you need a signal to remind you about the thing, because you're doing another thing, than fine. Standing on the edge I'm not thinking of getting busted, I'm not thinking of getting hurt, I'm not thinking of what to do if "whatever" happens. I'm just thinking about the thing. I just want to get off clean and do the thing that gets me an open parachute. If it’s a big wall it's just more time I can spend flying and getting ready for the thing. The danger level in BASE jumping can be directly traced to how far you distance yourself from the thing . . .

NickD
BASE 194

RhondaLea

Re: [NickDG] BASE dytter

In reply to: Will we get to the point when someone walks down from Kjerag because their gadget isn't working?
There's an interesting thread for the old fogies in General Skydiving right now.

If the course of BASE continues to parallel that of skydiving, the answer to your question is that it's the very next thing.

rl

kleggo

Re: [RhondaLea] BASE dytter

RL wrote

There's an interesting thread for the old fogies in General Skydiving right now.

interesting?
yes it does fit the criteria of the defintion of interesting, ( at least the cynics view of interesting).

i'd probably choose the word.............................
hmmmmmmm what's a good word to describe the feeling you have when you see or read something that leaves you shaking your head in bemused disbelief?

be safe

kleggo

RayLosli

Re: [RhondaLea] BASE dytter

rl:
". "
---

Hey did you hear the one about Lee and a Mormon Wedding, 15 year old Brides Maids and a bottle of Champagne ?
.
.

TomAiello

Re: [RayLosli] BASE dytter

In reply to: Hey did you hear the one about Lee and a Mormon Wedding, 15 year old Brides Maids and a bottle of Champagne ?
I didn't hear about it. But I was there.

RhondaLea

Re: [RayLosli] BASE dytter

In reply to: rl:
" . "
---

Hey did you hear the one about Lee and a Mormon Wedding, 15 year old Brides Maids and a bottle of Champagne ?
Nik told me.

But it was one of those time-zone-challenged phone calls--he could remember that his midnight was my 3 o'clock--and at the time I figured the odds were good I'd get a chance to hear it again, so I slept through most of it.

rl

Faber

Re: [460] BASE dytter

I think you have a good idea even as im whith Ray,you wont see me arround whith a ditter for BASE,but neither would you see me whith a sorzer...
But if it can save 1 it has payed it self,but i dont think people will use them...

also im affraid people will loose their altitude awardness and might rely on the ditter itself...

I think you got a nobel idea through

peterk

Re: [Faber] BASE dytter

I can't believe that I am reading this. With all due respect, Lee made some mistakes and was unlucky that day. The solution to back-to-earth impacts isn't a dytter that takes away the responsibility of pulling on time. It is to take 8 seconds or less, for a 11 second delay, so that you have cushion time and can ensure a good body position on opening. If I am 1700' on an A, I don't tell people that I am going to take 6 seconds, or 8 seconds, or 11 seconds, or whatever. I don't count, don't wait for my audible to tell my hand that it is pull time, I just keep my eyes open, enjoy the object and groundrush, and when the mental impact calculations come back that it is time to pull, I pull. If you go low on the skydive dytter, its all good. Your freefly jump broke apart at 4,000 instead of 5,000, 6 seconds later. If you dial your BASE audible to beep when it is too late, by the time you hear it, it will be.

How long will it take from you enjoying your BASE jump, in which you have already lost altitude awareness, to reaching back and filling up a pilot chute? The answer is too long...

Han-Solo

Re: [460] BASE dytter

if you can make a gadget (that i can afford), that makes it possible to backfly the bigwalls, not worrying about the space below me, i'd definitely be interested. but i don't think counting seconds is the way to go for this (at least not for this use). some kind of positioning device (at least 2-D) would be required. for a flat groud, a timebased system is fine. but for a tallus/mountainside, it's useless.
would it be possible to make something like this cheap enough? or small enough?

460

Re: [Han-Solo] BASE dytter

You guys...

Of course I'm not trying to remove the severe responsiblity for your life using your skills with an automated base ditter system...

It's just a failsafe system in case things go incredibly wrong, and it's with the best of intentions. I posted this trying to get feedback if I should actually go production with the item, with essentially no profit except to have fun and to prevent hazards for our community. If I decide to do a release, I am for something cheap, less than $150 or so.

Failsafe dudes, not a Cypress...

GIVE ME FEEDBACK, SHOULD I DO IT OR NOT? OTHERWISE, NO!

wwarped

Re: [460] BASE dytter

proceed.

as far as an audible warning, many won't trust it until it proves it's value. that won't happen unless it hits the street.

and if people don't want the beeps, then they don't need to wear it next to their ear. (or provide a way to disable the audible warning.)

the data collection aspect would be great. some already log an incredible amount of detail. why wouldn't they want more? especially if it lets them see the difference between a 46 and a 42 inch pilot chute.

JFK

Re: [460] BASE dytter

In reply to: GIVE ME FEEDBACK, SHOULD I DO IT OR NOT? OTHERWISE, NO!
Did you ask other people feedback before starting BASE jumping?

If you want to do it, then DO IT!

NickD

Re: [wwarped] BASE dytter

>>many won't trust it until it proves it's value. that won't happen unless it hits the street<<

Let's hope not, LOL . . .

NickD
BASE 194