Canopy Comparison

aeroflyer

I've been looking at different canopies for my first BASE rig and come across a lot of opinions. What does everyone think about the following: general characteristics / pros / cons of each. I have asked local jumpers and they all seem to like different canopies:

OSP - terminal performance?
BlackJack - set # vents?
Troll DW
FOX - how many vents for sub and terminal jumps?
Flick - bad glide?

After reading a lot, it seems like anything base specific will do. I'm currently leaning towards a BlackJack, but am wondering about terminal versus subterminal openings on all of the above.

Also, is Multi (bridle attachment) worth it? Only Apex seems to offer this option; jumpers I've asked have had a negative opinion of it.

For containers, I've somewhat narrowed it down to considering the Helium, Apex Summit, Zak2.

TomAiello

Re: [aeroflyer] Canopy Comparison

aeroflyer wrote: OSP - terminal performance?
Slow slider. Terminal appears to be fine. My only concern with the OSP is the glide, which is not as good as some of the other canopies on the market. Other than that (and the price, if that's an issue), the OSP is a great canopy.

In reply to: BlackJack - set # vents?
Trolls and OSP's also have a set number of vents. If price is an issue (so the OSP falls down the list a bit), the Blackjack is my top choice. Lower price, good openings, excellent glide and deep brake approaches. The other area I'd prefer the BJ to the OSP is when you need the glide to reach a remote landing area.

In reply to: Troll DW
If you can afford it, get an OSP instead. If you can't, go with the Blackjack.

In reply to: FOX - how many vents for sub and terminal jumps?
I'd get a Flik instead of a FOX. The FOX is more docile, but the Flik is clearly better in glide and flare.

In reply to: Flick - bad glide?
I'm not sure where you heard this. I own Fliks, FOXes, Aces, Blackjacks, Trolls...etc. The Flik has better glide than most of the canopies on the market (the only other contenders with it at the high end of the glide spectrum are the Ace/Blackjack and the Se7en).

In reply to: Also, is Multi (bridle attachment) worth it? Only Apex seems to offer this option; jumpers I've asked have had a negative opinion of it.
The multi seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure I've ever seen it actually solve a problem in the real world. I'd probably skip it.

In reply to: For containers, I've somewhat narrowed it down to considering the Helium, Apex Summit, Zak2.
If money is no object, I'd pick the Summit out of those three. If cost is an issue at all, the Helium is nearly as good and much cheaper.

Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
Snake River BASE Academy

aeroflyer

Re: [TomAiello] Canopy Comparison

Thanks for the comprehensive reply

Im leaning towards BJ, containers they're all around the same price if I buy new, just that Apex / Morpheus charge extra $ for stainless while the French include it. Do you think hip rings are necessary? I have them on my skydiving rig even though I fly a tracksuit mostly, but for sitfly they're useful.. I imagine same thing in BASE for aerials.

I got several PM's too, thanks everyone for the info feel free to post it here also.

I saw a video on YouTube of a guy at Apex closing the Summit, it looks like the closing loop tension is way less than on my skydiving rig. I guess I will learn this soon enough when I do a course.

Still undecided on which course.. options are locals going to the bridge, apex (recommended by a jumper who knows me and knows apex), and also your course Tom, my Ozzie friend seems to think it's more comprehensive than Apex. Maybe you can get me some info on that.

MBA-FRANK

Re: [aeroflyer] Canopy Comparison

Hello Aeroflyer,

Tom's course: 4 days instead of three. 13 or 14 jumps instead of five. Cheaper and there are many other good reasons to do Tom Aiello's course.

To be fair I didn't do the Apex course, but I know two people who did both courses and they ONLY recommend Tom A's course.

Try this article I wrote: http://www.basejumper.com/...string=SRBA;#2959795

Good luck, have fun!
Frank.

"Never regret growing old. It is a privilege denied to many" - Unknown

"Velcro - it's a rip off..." - Unknown
MBA - Mad BASE Association

Fledgling

Re: [TomAiello] Canopy Comparison

TomAiello wrote: , the Helium is nearly as good and much cheaper.
Unless something has changed over the years I would say that Morpheus containers are a much heavier build quality than any other rig on the market and should also be a point of consideration.

Fledgling

Re: [aeroflyer] Canopy Comparison

aeroflyer wrote: Do you think hip rings are necessary? I have them on my skydiving rig even though I fly a tracksuit mostly, but for sitfly they're useful.. I imagine same thing in BASE for aerials.
The biggest benefit I have found for having hip rings is for climbing around on stuff, or over hand rails an shit like that. Obviously not necessary but does make some things a little easier. I also think articulation pricing is a fucking scam (Skydive or BASE).

Huck

Re: [Fledgling] Canopy Comparison

It may be a quality container but ZERO customer service. I cancelled my order w them because of 4 missed ship dates. 2 months to return emails. Missed my base vacation w rig (ordered 7 months ahead and was told 15 weeks at order... cancelled at 34 weeks). Order my Apex never been happier.

wasatchrider

Re: [Huck] Canopy Comparison

Huck wrote: It may be a quality container but ZERO customer service. I cancelled my order w them because of 4 missed ship dates. 2 months to return emails. Missed my base vacation w rig (ordered 7 months ahead and was told 15 weeks at order... cancelled at 34 weeks). Order my Apex never been happier.
Plus if you tell them the size of your blackjack or anything measured in pia they will build you the wrong size container.

BASE 1519

Fledgling

Re: [Huck] Canopy Comparison

TomAiello

Re: [Fledgling] Canopy Comparison

Fledgling wrote: Huck wrote: It may be a quality container but ZERO customer service. I cancelled my order w them because of 4 missed ship dates. 2 months to return emails. Missed my base vacation w rig (ordered 7 months ahead and was told 15 weeks at order... cancelled at 34 weeks). Order my Apex never been happier.
Definitely another consideration.

My advice would be to use a dealer who has good communication with Kathy. I know people who have tried to get in touch with her for months, but I also know that she's very easy for me to contact. I can't remember the last time it took her more than a day to get back to me on something.

Apex customer service is definitely a strong point.

Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
Snake River BASE Academy

TomAiello

Re: [aeroflyer] Canopy Comparison

aeroflyer wrote: ...they're all around the same price if I buy new, just that Apex / Morpheus charge extra $ for stainless while the French include it.
The price difference can several hundred dollars once you factor in the cost of risers, stash bag, PC, and especially options. I'd recommend actually pricing up exactly what you want and comparing. Different manufacturers use very different pricing systems, so the "bottom line price" ends up quite different in some cases.

I don't think hip rings are very important. You're not in a BASE harness for nearly as long as you're in a skydiving harness. It's going to come down to personal preference, of course. You also usually don't get your money back out of options (like articulation) when you sell a used rig, if that matters to you.

It sounds like you're fairly cost-insensitive, though. If the money isn't an issue, I'd say go with an OSP (maybe lite) or a Blackjack (if you need the glide) in a Summit.

Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
Snake River BASE Academy

TomAiello

Re: [wasatchrider] Canopy Comparison

wasatchrider wrote: Huck wrote: It may be a quality container but ZERO customer service. I cancelled my order w them because of 4 missed ship dates. 2 months to return emails. Missed my base vacation w rig (ordered 7 months ahead and was told 15 weeks at order... cancelled at 34 weeks). Order my Apex never been happier.
Plus if you tell them the size of your blackjack or anything measured in pia they will build you the wrong size container.
If it's a Helium, you should try swapping to the floor plate closing loop. Its not "manufacturer approved" but I can make the same Helium fit canopies down to 220 and up to 280 by just switching from top flap to floor plate and long to short closing loops. The short closing loop installed on the floor plate basically reduces the pack tray size by a third.

Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
Snake River BASE Academy

dan_inagap

Re: [TomAiello] Canopy Comparison

Everyone in SA has had good experiences with the container usually completed before the canopy, that being said my preference is still a P-Pro.

It's all fun and games till someone burns a site
"I'm so fucking happy I could shit rainbows"

roostnureye

Re: [TomAiello] Canopy Comparison

TomAiello wrote: Fledgling wrote: Huck wrote: It may be a quality container but ZERO customer service. I cancelled my order w them because of 4 missed ship dates. 2 months to return emails. Missed my base vacation w rig (ordered 7 months ahead and was told 15 weeks at order... cancelled at 34 weeks). Order my Apex never been happier.
Definitely another consideration.

My advice would be to use a dealer who has good communication with Kathy. I know people who have tried to get in touch with her for months, but I also know that she's very easy for me to contact. I can't remember the last time it took her more than a day to get back to me on something.

Apex customer service is definitely a strong point.
^ this, I know a few people who have trouble getting ahold of kathy, but I've never had a problem, she has always taken care of any issue I've ever had almost immediately. top notch customer service, shes even had master riggers meet up with me at her place to discuss possible design changes of certain aspects of her containers, just by me mentioning a possible issue. I will definatly do business with her again and highly recommend the helium

BASE 1580
Aussie BASE 121

Dano302

Re: [TomAiello] Canopy Comparison

In my opinion, the OSP glide is not as bad as people make it out to be. While it may not be the norm, my OSP consistently out glides my Flik and I have no problem making to the same landing area's as everyone else.

Fledgling

Re: [Dano302] Canopy Comparison

Dano302 wrote: and I have no problem making to the same landing area's as everyone else.
This is probably the better point. It is pretty rare to have a landing area that is too far away.

dan_inagap

Re: [Fledgling] Canopy Comparison

Not in SA, I have a couple of fly far sights where a bad gust can change the game. My black jack (CUS) seems to out fly the others.

It's all fun and games till someone burns a site
"I'm so fucking happy I could shit rainbows"

aeroflyer

Re: [dan_inagap] Canopy Comparison

Hmm, well. Hip rings are definitely a scam.. any option that people can add to increase the price. But I'll probably get them.

Its true APEX is pricey.. with everything I want it comes out to around $1,400 for container, stash, only 1 PC. But the quality looks good.

Thanks for the info on morph / apex everyone.

Does anyone have a photo of the hip rings on the Helium? I don't want to get another rig with it like on my wings container, the webbing rubs together at the rings and is wearing.

My budget is maybe 3g's, but I would prefer to spend less. Helium + Troll is a deal.. $2500. But, I would prefer to get a blackjack.

TomAiello

Re: [aeroflyer] Canopy Comparison

aeroflyer wrote: Does anyone have a photo of the hip rings on the Helium?
http://baserigs.com/...cts/HE/details.html#

Click on "articulated harness," third from the bottom.

Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
Snake River BASE Academy

jduff

Re: [aeroflyer] Canopy Comparison

I have articulation on my new helium and so far I think it's great. Seems to allow for increased movement for sure. I don't foresee there being a problem with wear. Also, just a couple nights ago I used them as attachment points for safety lanyards as I climbed an object--an added utility.