General Gear question

emmett751

I'm a skydiver (350+ jumps) interested in BASE, I keep reading about 2 pin base rigs, I've searched around but haven't found a good answer as to what exactly that means. I'm looking for either a link or a good explanation between the differences in 1 pin, 2 pin and Velcro rigs. Thanks.

TomAiello

Re: [emmett751] General Gear question

Your question is so basic that it's difficult to understand what exactly you're asking.

But basically, it's the method of closure:

1 pin: closes with 1 pin, like most skydiving rigs.
2 pin: closes with 2 pins
Velcro: closes with a velcro shrivel flap

The best thing to do is take a good training course that will allow you to use, pack and evaluate all three types of systems. If you can hold them in your hands and see how they close it's very easy to understand.

jakee

Re: [emmett751] General Gear question

Any questions?

emmett751

Re: [TomAiello] General Gear question

TomAiello wrote: It's the method of closure:

1 pin: closes with 1 pin, like most skydiving rigs.
2 pin: closes with 2 pins
Velcro: closes with a velcro shrivel flap
Ok thats what i figured (like a skyrig pins), but why two pins, is there two closing loops or none?? I dont have a good understanding of how the containers are set up. I haven't had the chance to look at one in person before.

TomAiello

Re: [emmett751] General Gear question

There are two closing loops.

Usually one is attached to the bottom flap, and routes through the bottom grommets on both side flaps, and the other is attached to the top flap and routes through the top grommets on the side flaps. There are also variations where the closing loop is on the floor of the pack tray and routes through three grommets.

Each side flap has two grommets (one each for the top and bottom loops).

There are loads of arguments for and against each type of system. In my opinion, it largely boils down to marketing, but (also in my opinion) if you are going to buy a new rig today you should buy a 2 pin rig because it will have the highest resale value.

emmett751

Re: [emmett751] General Gear question

so by that photo, i'm assuming that on the right flap there are two small closing loops and two corresponding pins on the bridle to keep it closed. So is it safe to assume that 2 pins create a more secure closure than single pins (also assuming that the containers are set up the same way)

TomAiello

Re: [emmett751] General Gear question

emmett751 wrote: so by that photo, i'm assuming that on the right flap there are two small closing loops and two corresponding pins on the bridle to keep it closed.
On almost every 2 pin rig on the market today, the loops are either on the top and bottom flaps, or on the pack tray floor. I'm not familiar with any current designs that put the closing loops on the side flaps (right or left).

In reply to: So is it safe to assume that 2 pins create a more secure closure than single pins (also assuming that the containers are set up the same way)
No. I don't think it's safe to assume that at all. If 2 pins were always more secure, wouldn't the skydiving manufacturers have figured that out and gone to 2 pin rigs?

The 2 pin system originally evolved to try to deal with challenges in the geometry of the BASE container (it's tall and narrow, rather than short and wide like the piggyback skydiving container trays). But it's prevalence in the BASE world today is probably more due to marketing and historical accidents than any underlying technical superiority.

matoli

Re: [emmett751] General Gear question

I think this Apex video is a pretty good example on how the closing loops can be located on a 2-pin rig.
http://www.youtube.com/...;v=BVpQELhRL5I#t=80s

gahnananana

Re: [TomAiello] General Gear question

i see a couple advantages from purely observational point of view.

theoretically it distributes the reaction force due to the canopy over a wider area which makes sense in reducing the likely hood of delayed or inhibited deployment due to a high force at one pin. the problem with that would be variation in canopy distribution throughout the container.

also theres no velcro to replace with two pin rigs.

does that make sense tom?

i agree with the marketing aswell, its definitely taken over the market.

TomAiello

Re: [gahnananana] General Gear question

gahnananana wrote: theoretically it distributes the reaction force due to the canopy over a wider area which makes sense in reducing the likely hood of delayed or inhibited deployment due to a high force at one pin.
If you measure the pull force required to extract the pins with a wide variety of rigs and pack jobs, it's almost always easiest to pull the top pin, next easiest to pull the single middle pin, and hardest to pull the bottom pin. I think that's probably because when you tighten the leg straps, the harness geometry transfers that force almost directly back to the bottom of the side flaps, tensioning the bottom pin quite a bit more than with the harness loose.

As an ad hoc test, try putting on a 1 pin rig and throw the PC as hard as you can. When I do this, I can extract the pin 9 times out of 10. Next, put on a 2 pin rig and try to extract the pins by PC throw alone. I basically can't get the bottom pin to extract when I do that.

gahnananana

Re: [TomAiello] General Gear question

thats interesting, do you think it can amount to a "dangerous" amount of pin tension when a stashbag is stashed behind the container?

Fledgling

Re: [gahnananana] General Gear question

gahnananana wrote: i agree with the marketing aswell, its definitely taken over the market.
While I agree that most shit being pawned onto customers these days is not much more than marketing, 2 pin rigs are far better than one.
If only for the simple reason that 2 pin rigs are far more secure than a 1 pin rig. There are plenty of ways to dislodge a pin, either before exit or in freefall, and if you only have 1 of them then the consequences become far worse than if you had 2.

gahnananana

Re: [Fledgling] General Gear question

Ehh i disagree, there arent a lot of situations where two pins would have stayed in when one would have been extracted.

icarusfx99

Re: [gahnananana] General Gear question

Tell that to the guy who stepped on his bridle and pulled one pin at the exit point

gahnananana

Re: [icarusfx99] General Gear question

Are we talking about our buddy popping both and having to do a tard?

TomAiello

Re: [gahnananana] General Gear question

gahnananana wrote: thats interesting, do you think it can amount to a "dangerous" amount of pin tension when a stashbag is stashed behind the container?
Only in the most extreme circumstances. Something like a tight pack job with odd distribution, very low airspeeds and maybe a jumper who is in a tight tuck increasing tension? Maybe. But I think it's pretty unlikely.

icarusfx99

Re: [gahnananana] General Gear question

No, we are talking about the guy who popped one pin and continued with the static line as planned

gahnananana

Re: [icarusfx99] General Gear question

haha im not sure if im supposed to know about this or if i just forgot. but to argue that the one of the only reason for 2 pins is that its more secure isnt a solid statement

gahnananana

Re: [TomAiello] General Gear question

thats what i was thinking, thats some tight pin tension haha

freeflyJoe

Re: [gahnananana] General Gear question

I bet this dude is glad he had 2 pins...
https://www.youtube.com/...ture=player_embedded